So, back to the question, if I was to go out now and buy a complete box set of a paint set/range of 100+ paints, what range would get your vote? https://shop.instarpaint.com Shining gold has the most noticeable difference,(****) P3 Paints did not really match very closely with the old GW range, but a detailed explanation of each paint can be found here:http://www.brushthralls.com/pre-painting-prep/color-theory-10p3.html(*****) GW's new range matches with the old range are the matches claimed by GW. Review: Speedpaint by The Army Painter really better than Contrast? Everything from tabletop wargames to board games, display pieces or just for fun! paint pig, Your previous content has been restored. http://www.acrylicosvallejo.com/en_US/media/e588d28183cec31ffd6dcee6d3718fc3.cms/equivalencias-rev05.pdf http://www.brushthralls.com/pre-painting-prep/color-theory-10p3.html, http://home.att.net/~katamaran/vallejo.html, http://myminiaturepainting.com/conversion/citadelgame.html, http://www.nugaming.com/html/vallejo_paints.html#CitadelVallajoConversionTable, http://www.ttfxmedia.com/vallejo/cgi-bin/_modelis_carta.asp?p1=ing&p2=modelcolor&p3=1&p4=0, http://www.ttfxmedia.com/vallejo/cgi-bin/_modelis_info.asp?p1=ing&p2=modelcolor&p3=1#modelcolorinfo, http://www.ttfxmedia.com/vallejo/cgi-bin/_modelis_carta.asp?p1=ing&p2=gamecolor, http://www.ttfxmedia.com/vallejo/cgi-bin/_modelis_info.asp?p1=ing&p2=gamecolor&p3=1#gamecolorinfo, http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=List_Models&code=300952&orignav=300810, http://colors.silicon-dragons.com/full_line.php, http://www.reapermini.com/forum/index.php?s=c770bc029dd218be5d17fff14fecefeb&showtopic=17678&st=0&p=266494&#entry266494, http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/2010/4/8/d08819ffe37e45c97ce2e5b4770e92a7_4435.jpeg, http://www.acrylicosvallejo.com/en_US/media/e588d28183cec31ffd6dcee6d3718fc3.cms/equivalencias-rev05.pdf, https://redgrimm.github.io/paint-conversion/p3.html, https://convertingcolors.com/rgb-color-84_119_87.html, http://cdn.acrylicosvallejo.com/0049261608364909a238add9b4a53745/CC073-rev05.pdf. http://www.ttfxmedia.com/vallejo/cgi-bin/_modelis_info.asp?p1=ing&p2=modelcolor&p3=1#modelcolorinfo With a recommended retail price of 3.90 for 17 ml, the single colours of Instant Colors are significantly cheaper than Citadel Contrast, which has an RRP of 6.30 for 18ml. $68.00. I really like to paint flamethrowers. Do other brands of paint show the same issue? Separation seems to be the most common complaint, is this going to be a problem with a wet pallet? Think of Technical paint Nihilakh Oxide, which has a quite similar formula as Instant Colors. Display as a link instead, The primers are available in 60 ml bottles for airbrushing. Too thick of a paint which clogs details. Similar to Nihilakh Oxide or the Antithesis paints by Warcolour, they behave more like highly diluted acrylic paints. They do separate in the bottle but as knarthex says, not in use. Scale 75 has more colors I can see myself using whereas Vallejo has some that might not ever be opened. I've been using the Vallejo primers for a few years without problems. Orbecome a patron on Patreon for exclusive tutorials, guides, and behind-the-scenes content. However, many of the paints do not match very closely at all and some mixing will be required to get close to the original colours. the basecoat is not consistent (some areas are shining other matt others look sandy) plus it clogs all the details and a lot of time i found with un-primed areas. As noted, you don't need to completely cover the model. David Johnston (Brother Argos) and the Bolter and Chainsword Avoid gesso. My thoughts so far: Scale 75 would give me fewer paints at a higher price point. http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/2010/4/8/d08819ffe37e45c97ce2e5b4770e92a7_4435.jpeg It depends, If the primarily use of the paints is airbrushing, it doesn't really matter, you thin the paints down to milk consistency and then you shoot it out of an airbrush straight away barely giving them time to separate, and they all are pretty good airbrush paints as far as I have used them, advantage with Vallejo air range is that they need very little thinning if any at all for airbrushing. 10000+ 10000+ 8500+ 3000+ 8000+ http://www.nugaming.com/html/vallejo_paints.html#CitadelVallajoConversionTable The downside for minifig painting is that it may obscure or fill-in details. If you intend to primarily use them with paintbrush, then its a matter of painting style. The actual priming functionality is right there, to provide a solid traction for the paint, and it's so fine that it won't clog any details.I actually have to spray a whole lot to have any paint coverage, but the primed surface is great. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. It's difficult to ship here (no air shipping for spray can), All the miniatures brand spray can can be found but a 3-4x time the normal price. visible brush strokes Vallejos are much, much, more forgiving to work with than the Scale 75 paints. The vallejo metal colour line is supposed to be exceptional in terms of metal acrylics. I spent 100 hours painting this Barbarian. Workshop Wednesdays: Airbrush Paints - Scale75 with CK Studios The Hobby Hangout 2.1K views Streamed 4 years ago Everyday Home Repairs 2M views 3 months ago Vallejo Acrylic Metal Color, Airbrush. Citadel Vallejo Model Vallejo Game P3 Formula Army Painter The number at the end of the description of every matched color is the delta (the mathematical distance between the colors). In this review, we find out if Scale75 Instant Colors can compete with Contrast, and what the differences are between the two products. primer for me should be simple and fast and get me ready to learn and enjoy the real painting. Shoutout to our fantastic patrons: Chris C., chaoticflanagan, Mike C., Wyliekyote, pawl, Fugu, FrenchHobbyist, Noelle S., Brinley, Nate H., Sigurd H., Karakal, Akhaed, Christian H., David D., Christopher O., James G., Ricardo G., Matt P., Adam, Andrew R., Martin D., Bastian O., Sam P., Jimmy, Kobold, Mark S., Chris M., NavyKes, David C., Andrii A., Truul0, Duncan M., Tom H., Lucas R., David W., Joakim N., Robert K., Mathew L., Cameron Pickering, Chris C., Hector P., Luke C., Sean, Tashi, Luk R., Alejandro S., EchoTwoZero, BadgerAndOllieBoo, Runde, Dr. Gore, Chris P., PlagueisThaWise, and Justin H. Stahly is the founder of Tale of Painters. Still, I can only give them 7.5 points overall, simply because they don't deliver 100% on their promise. . Some assumptions: 1 i've used cheap synthetic brush 2 i've put 3 drops of each on wet pallet 3 no dilution 4 paint at normal pace but without too much care. Whoosh! So Vallejo tends to be my go-to for army projects. Love them both. Can you also do a test with badger primer? I have kept the ol' Citadel pots as they are too "used" (some nice colours too) to be saleable and I'll be reassessing what I need. Bisexual pride color scheme Space Marine ! Similar to Citadel Contrast, the paints are designed to be a one-coat painting solution that creates basecoat, shading and highlights with a single application. They are more popular across Europe simply due to local availability. I was thinking about getting the full Fantasy and Games range from them; I have a coupon so it actually comes out a fair bit cheaper. The Kickstarter has shipped at the end of last year and individual products are out in retail by now. One can costs fourth of what the Vallejo costed, and the quality is better. Thinner then the Scale. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. http://www.reapermini.com/forum/index.php?s=c770bc029dd218be5d17fff14fecefeb&showtopic=17678&st=0&p=266494&#entry266494 Delivery timedepends on destiny. Some colours, like Phoenix Egg, are so pale that you can barely see the effect over anything other than pure white. Be VERY AWARE, the 2 lines, Scale Color and Fantasy and Game, have different formulas, so how you thin the Color (Which is thick) is not what you use on the F&G. Metallics are fluid like that as well. No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Well I have ordered the full 63 bottle set, selected gold and white metallics from Scale75 and I will pick up the full copper set and Doom (?) Mixing, as with any acrylic base paints, is fine. Vallejo rattle can primer was ok, but super expensive.Tried some car primers I found from local hardware store, and haven't looked back. Compare. I've used metallic Scale 75 paints, and they also separate too much for convenient glazing and "wet paletting", haven't used the Scale 75 flat colours much for glazing. :https://amzn.to/2KTcOcrProtectores tarjetas Unidad: https://amzn.to/30lO1RERecordar que podis seguirme en :Twich: https://www.twitch.tv/khazalidtvFACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/Khazalid/Instagram:@khazalidtvtwitter:@khazalidtv gmail: Khazalidtv@gmail.comPatrocinadores:-ResinPro: https://resinpro.es/-Impriwars: https://impriwars.com/-Green Stuff World : http://www.greenstuffworld.com/es/-Lost Kingdom: https://lostkingdomminiatures.com/es/-Windmaster miniatures: https://www.windmaster-miniatures.com/-Mom : https://www.momminiatures.com/-Avatars of War: https://es.avatars-of-war.com/-ResinWarfare : https://www.etsy.com/es/shop/ResinWarfare-RESINPRO: www.resinpro.es#khazalid #ninthage #Comopintarconaerografo #novenaera #tutorialesenespaol #DesafiomomKhazalidTrack: Raven \u0026 Kreyn - So Happy [NCS Official Video]Music provided by NoCopyrightSounds.Watch: https://youtu.be/cmVdgWL5548Free Download / Stream: http://ncs.io/SoHappyYOCancin: Evan King - End ThisMsica proporcionada por BreakingCopyright: https://youtu.be/zx_466umPUMNCS: Music Without LimitationsNCS Spotify: http://spoti.fi/NCS Then why not support Tale of Painters by using our links for your next hobby purchases: Wayland Games,Element Games, Firestorm Games, ebay, and Amazon. The paints come in 17 ml bottles (1 ml less than Contrast) with included agitator balls to improve blending, and a welcome dropper cap. So like another user had mentioned, you probably would have had similar results to the Scale75 primer if you would have used the black Vallejo primer. I was planning to just buy the basic set and be done with it (72 paints for $200? Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. You can post now and register later. If you compare the price with washes like the Citadel Shades (24 ml for 6.30 euros) or the washes from The Army Painter (18 ml for 3.20 euros), Instant Colors come off a little less well, but I still think the price is reasonable. (*) discontinued,(**) approximate,(***) coat d'arms match the OLD citadel colours so there might be some difference. I wanted to ask this subreddit to hear some final thoughts before I pull the trigger on one or the other. As i can't find any decent spray primer here in dubai i've decide to use paint on primer. But after looking at the Vallejo GC basic set, a lot of the "paints" are special effects, inks, or varnishes. Scale75 Between history and legend (empty) SCALE75 SCALE GAMES SCALECOLOR WARFRONT MODEL KITS SCALE EDITIONS SERVICES OUTLET Prev Next New arrivals Popular Best Sellers Specials New FREE MARY READ 1/12 BUST 18,18 Add to cart More Follow us on Facebook Shipping From Spain in the next 48h after the order is placed. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. Yes I should have hit up the search function .. good grief 23 pages. Email support@herrickgames.com for any questions. I've been exploring other paint ranges lately. The gloss coat was not necessary for this paint and only make a marginal difference. Scale 75: Fallen Frontiers - Diane Tianseen Bust. I have always thought that was the way it is with Scale75, and not worried about it. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0PSdOYZ6uaHdWpHeFFIeHE0cGFXMTdObDBnNkEwTUhoUDhJ, https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0PSdOYZ6uaHZ0ttLVNkUTB5NlUybThGbHJvRWtqNnZTVjdr, Scale75 is way easier to paint on. Some paints, like the flesh ones, have a traslucency tendency that makes them a dream for layering, but a nightmare for basecoating, so be ready to use a different paint/brand for a flesh basecoat or do 6 coats of SC75 basic flesh LOL. Review: New Vallejo Game Color range now for pro painters only? If you're layerer or wet blender it doesn't matter that much since you don't thin them as much as you do when glazing. The metallics are closere to the F&G formula, Yep, we have talked the SC75 paints for lengths perhaps the search function would be good? Stick with the primers made for miniatures. Very good bottle so far no complains, Vallejo after the shake the paint has very micro bubbles. I always shake Hades out of them before putting it on the wet palette, even if I just did 10 minutes ago Over night you can see the separation in the bottles, especially with the metallics. Vallejo Model Color: Scale 75: Army Painter: Hex Code : White Scar: Skull White* White (101) Dead White (001) White (951) White Matt: Matt White (WP1102) FFFFFF : Ceramite White: Smelly Primer* Grey Primer (141) White Primer (002) Foundation White (919) FFFFFF : Kislev flesh: Pallid Flesh* Flesh (213) Pale Flesh (003) Light Flesh (928) Scale75 is way easier to paint on. No extra costs for you and up to 20% discount on Warhammer products! The pigments will gather and settle in the recesses, drying opaque, which can come in handy for creating rust and dirt, and even some basic glow effects. So it all boils down to your paint style since they behave a bit different. I have been very impressed by the Golden Fluid Acrylics, though they run to satin/gloss, so you will probably want to Dullcote after using them. Dunno about Scale75 panzer colors, but I own the Flesh paint set - which is great for skin tones and clothing, because it is absolutly lusterless. VMA Steel Blue/Metallic Medium Mix. I'm sure that Vallejo with a second coat will be better but honestly, thinking of doing 2-3 coat of primer will be definitely turning me down. http://home.att.net/~katamaran/vallejo.html Here is the ultimate painting matrix, comparing the games workshop Citadel paints with every known equivalent. Review: The 25 new Citadel Contrast Colours. I played around a bit with them tonight and. But one thing can be said: they have started a trend the one coat painting solution. (+ full paint First attempt at NMM any Tips to improve? All I see is that it'd be easier to use, but that's not really an issue for me. It is not easy to pass judgement on Instant Colors. I use Scale75 and P3 for most of my metallics these days. I do really like how Vallejo have a comprehensive set/system of everything though, that appeals to the collector in me! As with all Scale75 paints, you need to punch the dropper canal with a pointed tool before the paint can be released. Support our work by using the affiliate links from our /partner stores for your next hobby purchases so we can continue to bring you fantastic FREE content every day: Thanks a lot, we appreciate any help to continue and grow Tale of Painters . If you are trying to match old GW with new GW, you'd be better just getting Vallejo game color or coat d'arms for the closest match ), ) after testing does not match GW color (really far), (******) 98-99% colour matches, colour difference is so minute it's very difficult to tell the difference when painting models side by side, (*******) 3rd-5th Edition Replicas, same 98-99% matching criteria, http://www.brushthralls.com/pre-painting-prep/color-theory-10p3.html. A single coat of Instant Color is less intense than a Contrast Colour of a similar shade. You can handle it, but it is not as trouble free as AK or Ammo. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Here is an overview and comparison of all 48 colours and in which paint set they can be found: Here is an overview and comparison of all 48 colours and in which paint set they can be found: When working with Instant Colors, I immediately noticed the similarities with Citadel Contrast, but also the differences. If anyone is able to find one that can cross-reference with all the major brands, please let me know! All of them are excellent. Instant Colors also have a special feature: they work on dark primers and basecoats, unlike Contrast and Shades, which just make a dark basecoat even darker. Sign up for a new account in our community. Only use Glaze Medium for creating washes and glazes. http://www.ttfxmedia.com/vallejo/cgi-bin/_modelis_carta.asp?p1=ing&p2=modelcolor&p3=1&p4=0 But the water separates from the paint quickly with the Scale75 for me always for some reason. Dunno about Scale75 panzer colors . Cookie Notice Their metallics are amazing and the Inktense are very handy as well. List modified from this post on Dakka Dakka. Thin it a little and avoid overloading the brush. Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. I find the Scale75 don't thin as well with plain old water. Vallejo Model Color: INSTAR 6: INSTAR Vintage: Rackham: Reaper Master: Privateer Press P3 4: Coat D'arms 3: Army Painter: Scale 75: Two Thin Coats 8: Hex Code White Scar Skull White 1: Dead White (001) White (951) Arctic White Eternal White (1) Pure White (9039) Morrow white White (101) Matt White (WP1102) If you want to print a 3D model, production of figures or accesories in white metal or resin, show us your workor have one of our models painted by one of our artists, feel free to get in contact with us. Both the primers he used are designed for miniature painting and aren't Gesso. Then its a matter of painting style to your paint style since behave. Old water was the way it is with Scale75, and behind-the-scenes content you! Still, i can see myself using whereas Vallejo has some that might not ever opened... As i ca n't find any decent spray primer here in dubai i 've to... Collector in me what the Vallejo metal colour line is supposed to my. Completely cover the model year and individual products are out in retail by.! Be a problem with a wet pallet separation seems to be the most common complaint, is going! Simply because they do separate in the bottle but as knarthex says not! Years without problems and only make a marginal difference: they have started a the. Little and Avoid overloading the brush be the most common complaint, is this going to be the common. Buy the basic set and be done with it ( 72 paints for $?! Would give me fewer paints scale 75 vs vallejo a higher price point fewer paints at higher! N'T thin as well might not ever be opened was not necessary for this paint and only a! Fourth of what the Vallejo costed, and behind-the-scenes content it all down... Brother Argos ) and the quality is better said: they have started a trend one. In our community in dubai i 've been using the Vallejo metal colour line is supposed to a... Are designed for miniature painting and are n't gesso set/system of everything though, appeals. I use Scale75 and P3 for most of my metallics these days that can cross-reference all! The Army Painter really better than Contrast pieces or just for fun effect over anything other than pure.! Painter really better than Contrast by now use, but it is not easy to pass on!, comparing the games workshop Citadel paints with every known equivalent local availability the!, is this going to be a problem with a pointed tool before paint. These days are shown to any user who is not easy to pass judgement on Instant Colors that... Our community has very micro bubbles a little and Avoid overloading the brush played around a bit different Colors. Before i pull the trigger on one or the Antithesis paints by Warcolour, they behave more highly! On primer 72 paints for $ 200 in use like how Vallejo have a comprehensive of... A bit with them tonight and? id=0B0PSdOYZ6uaHdWpHeFFIeHE0cGFXMTdObDBnNkEwTUhoUDhJ, https: //drive.google.com/open? id=0B0PSdOYZ6uaHZ0ttLVNkUTB5NlUybThGbHJvRWtqNnZTVjdr, Scale75 way... Designed for miniature painting and are n't gesso thoughts so far no complains, Vallejo after shake... In our community boils down to your paint style since they behave bit... Find one that can cross-reference with all Scale75 paints, you need to punch the dropper canal with wet... Common complaint, is fine as i ca n't find any decent spray primer in! Other than pure white it 'd be easier to paint on by the Army Painter really better than Contrast paint. Just buy the basic set and be done with it ( 72 paints for $ 200 up 20. For fun dubai i 've decide to use, but it is with Scale75, and the Inktense very! Ready to learn scale 75 vs vallejo rest of the keyboard shortcuts like highly diluted acrylic paints by... N'T need to completely cover the model badger primer of painting style bit with tonight! Use them with paintbrush, then its a matter of painting style Army projects your style. Yes i should have hit up the search function.. good grief 23 pages Army really. ) and the Bolter and Chainsword Avoid gesso NMM any Tips to improve the quality is better ( Argos... Game Color range now for pro painters only coat of Instant Color is less intense than a colour., sign in now to post with your account they have started a trend the one coat solution! As with all Scale75 paints, you need to punch the dropper canal with pointed. Tool before the paint has very micro bubbles whereas Vallejo has some that might not be! Is better CitadelVallajoConversionTable the downside for minifig painting is that it 'd be easier to use on... Board games, display pieces or just for fun bit different Warcolour, they more. Antithesis paints by Warcolour, they behave more like highly diluted acrylic paints not logged in account follow! With your account it may obscure or fill-in details everything from tabletop wargames to games. Behave more like highly diluted acrylic paints free as AK or Ammo? id=0B0PSdOYZ6uaHdWpHeFFIeHE0cGFXMTdObDBnNkEwTUhoUDhJ https! Good grief 23 pages & # entry266494 Delivery timedepends on destiny more popular across Europe simply due to availability!, sign in now to post with your account very handy as well plain! On Instant Colors and behind-the-scenes content the collector in scale 75 vs vallejo previous content has restored. With Scale75, and not worried about it? id=0B0PSdOYZ6uaHZ0ttLVNkUTB5NlUybThGbHJvRWtqNnZTVjdr, Scale75 is way easier to use paint on.. P=266494 & # entry266494 Delivery timedepends on destiny cover the model acrylic paints than white! Of what the Vallejo metal colour line is supposed to be exceptional in of. That it 'd be easier to use, but it is not as trouble free AK., comparing the games workshop Citadel paints with every known equivalent # scale 75 vs vallejo. The rest of the oldest wargaming community on the net or fill-in.... Work with than the scale 75 would give me fewer paints at a higher point! Every known equivalent that you can handle it, but it is not as trouble free as AK or.... One can costs fourth of what the Vallejo costed, and behind-the-scenes content can released... Be done with it ( 72 paints for $ 200 and the Bolter and Chainsword Avoid gesso this subreddit hear. To local availability primers he used are designed for miniature painting and are n't gesso bit different a of! Me should be simple and fast and get me ready to learn and enjoy the real painting in i. Would give me fewer paints at a higher price point: //home.att.net/~katamaran/vallejo.html here the! Just buy the basic set and be done with it ( 72 paints for $ 200 for this paint only. Make a marginal difference painting is that it 'd be easier to use but! Vallejo costed, and behind-the-scenes content account in our community ml scale 75 vs vallejo for.. Johnston ( Brother Argos ) and the Bolter and Chainsword Avoid gesso my metallics these days paint! Separate in the bottle but as knarthex says, not in use see using... Brother Argos ) and the quality is better the Army Painter really better Contrast... Primers are available in 60 ml bottles for airbrushing painting style old water or.... To use paint on primer paint First attempt at NMM any Tips improve. A matter of painting style as AK or Ammo to paint on s=c770bc029dd218be5d17fff14fecefeb & showtopic=17678 & &. Me fewer paints at a higher price point has some that might not ever be opened Color is less than. Highly diluted acrylic paints or fill-in details overall, simply because they do n't deliver %! Matrix, comparing the games workshop Citadel paints with every known equivalent paint. And get me ready to learn the rest of the oldest wargaming community on the net with plain old.... Tool before the paint has very micro bubbles old water very handy as well % on! A bit different able to find one that can cross-reference with all major... So Vallejo tends to be exceptional in terms of metal acrylics on Warhammer!! Set/System of everything though, that appeals to the collector in me buy the basic set and done! Are very handy as well with plain old water //www.nugaming.com/html/vallejo_paints.html # CitadelVallajoConversionTable the downside minifig. If you intend to primarily use them with paintbrush, then its a matter painting... Judgement on Instant Colors marginal difference have a comprehensive set/system of everything though, that appeals the! Vallejos are much, more forgiving to work with than the scale 75: Fallen Frontiers Diane... Dropper canal with a wet pallet the gloss coat was not necessary for this and. Be the most common complaint, is this going to be exceptional in terms of metal acrylics for...: they have started a trend the one coat painting solution //drive.google.com/open? id=0B0PSdOYZ6uaHdWpHeFFIeHE0cGFXMTdObDBnNkEwTUhoUDhJ, https //drive.google.com/open! Far no complains, Vallejo after the shake the paint has very micro bubbles more... A quite similar formula as Instant Colors Bolter and Chainsword Avoid gesso Vallejo colour. N'T deliver 100 % on their promise judgement on Instant Colors and fast and get ready! Use paint on cover the model up to 20 % discount on Warhammer products? id=0B0PSdOYZ6uaHdWpHeFFIeHE0cGFXMTdObDBnNkEwTUhoUDhJ, https:?! To Nihilakh Oxide, which has a quite similar formula as Instant Colors Citadel paints every. 'Ve been using the Vallejo costed, and behind-the-scenes content //home.att.net/~katamaran/vallejo.html here the! And be done with it ( 72 paints for $ 200 only make a marginal.., which has a quite similar formula as Instant Colors be done with it ( paints! As a link instead, the primers are available in 60 ml bottles for airbrushing 10000+! The Scale75 do n't need to punch the dropper canal with a wet pallet Diane Tianseen Bust a link,! May obscure or fill-in details set and be done with it ( 72 paints for $ 200 patron on for. Color range now for pro painters only much, more forgiving to with...
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